Here is an interview I did with Patri Friedman way back in 2009, but apparently nobody is interested in publishing interviews with people who want to live on the sea and have a big old political experiment. Go figure.
Patri Friedman is a supporter, and dweller, of intentional communities (‘communes’ to us laymen/women), and the Executive Director of the Seasteading Institute – a non-profit organisation aiming to create habitable platforms at sea for people who feel politically marginalised. Libertarians ahoy!
Seriously though, getting a $500,000 start-up investment from Paypal founder Peter Thiel is usually a good indicator that you’re being taken seriously. Read on for a Q & A with the main man behind it.
| 1. To put in short The Seasteading Institute is an organisation which aims to one day build permanent settlement on the ocean for people who are dissatisfied with the stagnant nature of current political structures and societal norms. True? |
Yep. We may not actually build the settlements, as we are a nonprofit and that could be better handled by business ventures. We aim to lay the groundwork in terms of engineering research, establishing credibility, and building a community so that such ventures can prosper.
2. Just to clarify, how exactly does somebody like yourself come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is build floating habitats on the ocean upon which people can live by their own chosen form of government? No doubt some people have called you crazy? |
All the time! But usually before they've seen any details, rarely after they've heard an explanation.
Well, I started out dissatisfied with current forms of government. I happen to be a libertarian, and all existing countries are far from my ideal political system. On researching it, I discovered the strong trend towards centralization and bureaucracy, and against local autonomy, and realized this affects all minority political movements, not just libertarians. How could all of these small groups of passionate people find a way to put their political ideas into practice?
History suggests that political innovation often occurs on the frontier, and the ocean is the obvious next frontier. And when I started researching it, I discovered that while it has a great disadvantage - that it's a nasty place with lots of big waves - it also has a great advantage. You can build ocean cities out of modular units so that you can later rearrange them. In other words, people can vote with their houses - switch countries without ever leaving their home! I think this has the potential to make these societies work better, because they will be voluntary associations of people who want to live together, rather than being trapped in one place on their land.
| 3. As someone who lives in, and has helped establish intentional communities, what would Seasteading offer over such communities? |
Instead of just being an intentional community, it's an intentional country. Residents would have the freedom to experiment, not just at the level of who does the dishes or how common space is laid out, but all the way up to the great questions like taxes, regulation, defense, caring for the poor, and so forth.
| 4. What would your own Seastead be like in terms of social structure and government? |
I'm not actually sure. Definitely libertarian, in that it would only ban things that directly affect other people. But one reason I like seasteading is that I think even if you agree on the goals for a society, it is very hard to figure out what rules and institutions will achieve those goals. So you have to try things out, see if they work, and then tinker with them later. Which means I don't actually know what would best achieve my goal of increased freedom without having to hide or be a hermit.
One very non-libertarian rule I would want is "Don't do things which will get us invaded". Even if this requires banning some activities that I think are moral (anonymous banking, making drugs for export to countries where they are illegal), I think it is necessary to ensure that freedom today doesn't lead to repression tomorrow.
5. Given that your ultimate goal is to have numerous Seasteads, all of which will presumably have their own form of governments philosophy on social structures; do you think that in the long term there will undoubtedly be conflict between them, with the outcome being a large group of Seasteads being under the rule of a few? |
Because the population is there voluntarily, seasteads will be run more like businesses and less like governments. While businesses aren't perfect, and often cooperate with (or even coopt) the violence of governments, on their own they rarely engage in armed conflict. War drives away trade, and trade is the lifeblood of a business. States go to war because they can use other people to fight (like draftees), and finance it with other people's money. When you have to pay for and fight a war, it will rarely pay. If a seastead declares war, then (as David Friedman says), everyone will leave except the generals and war journalists.
I can certainly imagine mergers, but they will be peaceful. And if people don't like the resulting country, they will just leave - that's the whole point of seasteading. If you think too few are ruling too many, then start a new country, and if people agree with you, it will prosper. I don't think that seasteading will fix everything bad about the world - far from it - but I do believe that war for territory happens because of the fixed nature of geography on land, a characteristic not shared by the ocean.
I can certainly imagine mergers, but they will be peaceful. And if people don't like the resulting country, they will just leave - that's the whole point of seasteading. If you think too few are ruling too many, then start a new country, and if people agree with you, it will prosper. I don't think that seasteading will fix everything bad about the world - far from it - but I do believe that war for territory happens because of the fixed nature of geography on land, a characteristic not shared by the ocean.
5. The idea of Coaststeads seems very interesting, especially with regards to medical procedures. The obvious benefits of these which are mentioned on TSI FAQ page, being that things such as medical procedures could be performed for half of the price due to it being in non-government controlled waters. However, would you be worried that some people may take advantage of this fact? Obviously this filters all the way through the idea of Seasteading. Would there be any sort of mandate or limitations imposed regarding what is, or isn't allowed, when in the Seasteading community. I mean, imagine a whole Seastead of Abba fans. Surely you wouldn't allow that? |
Hey, it's not like the Winner Takes It All. As long as they have Money, Money, Money, and are looking to party like the Dancing Queen and not fight Waterloo, why not?
More seriously, I don't really see where the "taking advantage" comes in. I would say that government take advantage of their trapped citizens. We believe that people who choose to freely associate deserve substantial local autonomy.
In terms of what is or isn't allowed, remember that seasteading is an inherently pluralistic movement. Just like each seastead can decide its own laws, it can also decide what it will or won't tolerate. That isn't for me or TSI to impose. That said, we may make recommendations, and I recommend that seasteaders intervene when the right to free association is threatened, for example by something like slavery. I don't think that the community should interfere when a seastead is doing something that will get it shut down, like exporting drugs or researching WMD, I think it is much better to distance ourselves from such rogues and let them bear the consequences from existing nations.
| 6. To most, the concept behind TSI will sound fantastical, to others it will sound dangerous, not just for the obvious reason of having to "master" the ocean, but also in terms of having a group of such free-minded individuals attempting to build a society. How do you address such concerns and does the accusation of yours being a utopian idea concern you? If it was utopian it would have to turn into a dystopia, right? |
Unfortunately, many people like to meddle in other's lives. It makes sense that such busybodies would be worried about a group who want the autonomy to construct their own ideal society. That's their problem.
While seasteading is a movement which seeks to create a better society, I do not believe we are utopian. The reason is that we have specific theories about how societies will work better on the ocean because of its fluid geography. We aren't just hoping that the new society will be better than the old, with no particular reason. Seasteading has the potential to solve a few of humanity's problems - like governments which are enormous and disconnected from their citizens. But we don't expect it to be perfect.
| 7. For humours sake; Do you have a sea-monster contingency plan? |
Not specifically, but if the giant kraken does attack, hopefully our defenses against pirates and our emergency plans to deal with storms will be sufficient. No matter how large and slimy the sea-monster, a cruise missile between the eyes will seriously cramp its style.
8. Is there a particular type of person which you would consider ideal for TSI? I'm sure there are a multitude people who are not happy with their current role in there given society, and with the society itself, who would love the chance to start over (or just not pay tax) , but would there be any sort of exclusion, or selection process? |
TSI itself is not launching any specific seastead ventures, at least right now. Each private seastead venture is welcome to set its own selection process. I would say that the ideal seasteader is someone who is fed up with current societies, has ideas about how to make things work better, and wants to live those ideas, not just talk about them. The ability to work remotely, live communally, and deal with a pioneering type of environment will likely be valuable as well.
9. What type of people do you already have involved in TSI? |
Our staff and board bios are here: http://seasteading.org/about-tsi/bios, so you can see that part for yourself. In terms of the community, we have everything from libertarian geeks to self-sufficiency communists. Members are largely in the US and Europe. We all share a dissatisfaction with current society, and the desire to do something about it, not just complain.
10. Lastly, are you still on track for the launch of a prototype in San Francisco Bay next year (2010)*? |
Yes, we still expect to do that in 2010. We plan to design the prototype and conduct a fundraising drive for it later this year, and if that goes well we'll be able to start construction in 2010. This will likely be a small prototype we call StudioStead as it will be the size of a studio apartment.
*Since this interview was conducted in 2009 TSI have yet to launch their prototype, but are instead planning on launching a more ambitious project by 2014. Keep an eye on the oceans
